LONDON — As Zohran Mamdani begins his term as New York’s mayor today, one man across the Atlantic will be watching closely: his London counterpart Sadiq Khan.

Almost a decade since he was elected the first Muslim mayor of a Western capital, Khan, now 55 and in his third term, said it was “heartbreaking” to see the same anti-Islam tropes once directed at him now aimed at Mamdani. And yet, he noted in an interview with POLITICO Magazine, Mamdani took the attacks head on and came out victorious.

The center-left Labour mayor exchanged some messages with the American democratic socialist during the campaign and calls Mamdani by his first name. Khan has plenty of reasons to swap notes with the New York mayor, and not just because of their shared faith, their stewardship of global financial capitals or a desire to talk political strategy (“he’s charismatic, he’s good looking — the reasons why I hate him,” jokes Khan).

The most pressing of those reasons: President Donald Trump. Khan sat down for an interview in his relocated City Hall, a sleek glass building overlooking a redeveloped dock and cable car in east London, shortly after the U.S. president called Khan a “a horrible, vicious, disgusting mayor,” and suggested he was elected due to the number of immigrants in London. Mamdani remains in his honeymoon period with Trump for now, but Khan is skeptical it will last.

While Khan and Mamdani have different politics, they’re both now presiding over cities more liberal than the rest of their country and focused on the skyrocketing cost of living. Can they use their platforms to unite a fractured electorate, or is the polarization of Western politics only heading one way? The answer will have ramifications far beyond London or New York.

This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

You’ve been in a position of high office for nearly a decade as one of the most prominent Muslim men in British public life. What advice would you give Zohran Mamdani?

Firstly, it’s not for me to give Zohran advice. He’s won an inspirational campaign to be the Democratic candidate and then a remarkable campaign to become the mayor.

[But] what I found disappointing was almost 10 years after my experience in a very similar city, you had the same tropes, the same prejudice, the same anti-Muslim hatred rearing its head, in Zohran’s case — using parallels with 9/11, in my case with 7/7 [a deadly series of 2005 bombings on London’s public transport]. It was heartbreaking for me to see, distressing for me to see, but I was impressed by how he dealt with it.

I’m somebody who has made a conscious decision not to volunteer some of my experiences, because I worry about the impact it has on other minorities, thinking of putting their head above the parapet as a politician. But sometimes you’ve got to deal with it head-on. And I think the way he dealt with the head-on was really important.”

Mamdani said that he’d been advised by a well-meaning uncle that he could keep his faith to himself. Did anyone ever advise you that earlier in your career?

On many occasions have I been advised professionally and privately that it can sometimes be a vote loser. And actually, in the 1980s in the Labour Party, there were real concerns about whether people of color could be elected as MPs.

I think there is a concern among some people that being an ethnic minority, being a religious minority, and if the religion you belong to is Islam, there is a concern it could be a vote loser. I’m quite clear: I’m not a Muslim mayor. I’m not a Muslim politician. I’m a politician who also is a Muslim.

I’ve got multiple identities. I’m a Londoner, I’m English, I’m British, I’m Muslim, of Pakistani ethnic origin, of Indian and South Asian origin as well. I’m a Liverpool [Football Club] fan.

I think you can have multiple identities, and sometimes people for the best of intentions advise you maybe to hide or bury one, because it may be a vote loser.

Do you want to say who advised you?

No. It’s not malevolent advice, just like Zohran’s uncle wasn’t saying it in a nasty way. He himself, I’m sure, is a Muslim. He was saying it because of the concern that sometimes people pre-judge. Look, the word prejudice comes from two words, “pre” and “judging.” I recognize that sometimes people haven’t mixed or mingled with Muslims, and so the only experience they have is what they’ve seen on TV. And so they may wrongly assume that all Muslims are terrorists or that Muslims live in silos.

And one of the things that I’m sure Zohran will do as the mayor of New York is, in a non-patronizing way, educate people about what it is to be an American Muslim, just like hopefully, I’ve sought to do in the context of what it’s like to be a British Muslim.

You’re calling him by his first name. Have you two been speaking? When’s the last time you chatted with him?

I’m not going to get into that. I mean, we’ve messaged and stuff, and he’s somebody who is clearly going to change discourse in not just America, but I think elsewhere. I know from personal experience that your election can have an impact on shores far away from where you are, and I think you’ll see the ripples of the Mamdani effect all across the globe.”

Were you in touch during his campaign as well?

Listen, we messaged, but I really don’t want to get into — I’m in contact with all New York’s mayors, from Zohran to Eric [Adams] to Bill [de Blasio] to Mike [Bloomberg].

Are you hoping for a meeting with him in the future?

I’m sure we’re both very busy being the mayors of our great cities. But I’ve met all the previous mayors of New York, so I’m sure at some stage we’ll meet face-to-face.

You’re both the mayors of similar size, major liberal cities, financial capitals. Have you bonded over that shared experience?

There are many similarities. We’re financial capitals. I think we’re a cultural capital, political capital, tech capital.

And our values. I think one of the things that really impressed me was notwithstanding the anti-Muslim hatred, notwithstanding the obvious racism, New Yorkers chose hope over fear, unity over division. And by the way, so did London in 2016, 2021 and 2024.

When Mamdani met the president in the Oval Office, it was quite chummy. They got on quite well. Was there a sense in which you thought, “God, if only I’d got a meeting with Donald Trump 10 years ago, it might have all been very different?”

I think what you’re seeing is tactical diplomacy. I had a really horrible campaign in 2016 in terms of the Islamophobia. Within two weeks, I was on a platform with [former Conservative PM] David Cameron, working together, campaigning to keep the U.K. in the European Union.

When you’re a leader of a city, there are occasions where you work with the government, whether it’s a prime minister in my case, or president in New York’s case, and there are times when you stand up to them.

And I think it’s really important for mayors and national leaders to get on where they can. I’ve sought to get on with every prime minister of this country, whether it’s Conservative or Labour.

With Trump, though, it’s been incredibly combative. He comes at you a lot. You come at him back. What strategies do you employ for when you see one coming down the track?

Well, when you look at the animus, hatred and bile coming from President Trump towards me. I sort of assumed when Zohran was elected, President Trump would be two-timing me and spending time targeting Zohran.

It’s not happened yet. He’s been quite monogamous in relation to his hatred towards me. Let’s see how long that monogamy continues.

When that monogamy does end, as you put it, would you encourage anyone who’s on the receiving end of that, such as the mayor of New York or anyone else, to be combative back?

I learned when I was nine years old that the best way to deal with a bully, whether it’s in the playground or in the White House, is to stand up to them. You don’t get more respect from a bully by cowering.

And when somebody attacks my city, our citizens, our values, our way of life — when somebody makes certain generalizations about the followers of one faith — I think it’s incumbent to stand up to them.

And I’ve seen this, by the way, in America. Whether it’s Chicago, whether it’s Los Angeles, and we’ll have to wait and see what happens to New York. You’ve seen this president send in the National Guard and say pretty odious things about those respective cities. And you’ve seen mayors and governors in America standing up to President Trump.

I hope that President Trump has seen the light and realizes that Western people of Islamic faith aren’t the boogie man. I think it’s possible to be Western and a Muslim, contrary to this view that it’s a clash of civilizations. One of the things I’ve always sought to do is to be somebody who respects pluralism.

Is there a sense in which it is, dare I say, helpful to you and your base to be seen to be picking a fight with Donald Trump?

I’ve never started this. That sounds terribly petty, but it’s President Trump saying odious things. Often, I’ve let it go.

I genuinely think he’s obsessed. And there have been many periods where he’s said horrible things and I’ve not responded because I’m just too busy to get involved in tittle-tattle, and this pathetic name-calling.

But literally, we’re meeting on a day where President Trump has done an interview with POLITICO, and out of nowhere, he’s volunteered this bile not just towards me, but making sweeping generalizations about the country in terms of the immigration policy and how elections are fought and won.

Zohran Mamdani said recently that he’s going to be moving to Gracie Mansion for security reasons. Has the very public back and forth with Donald Trump affected your security situation?

Well, what the election of President Trump did in 2016 is it brought from the periphery into the mainstream pretty unpalatable views. It normalized not just bad words, but bad behavior.

When I grew up it wasn’t uncommon for the P-word to be used to describe somebody like me, or the N-word for somebody who was Black, or the Y-word for somebody who’s Jewish. I had not heard it for 20 years, and I’ve heard it again since 2016. There’s a correlative link — sorry, I beg your pardon, a causative link — in terms of President Trump’s election and the hatred I receive online, the threats that I receive.

It’s not about me. We’ve all seen a rise in Islamophobia since President Trump was elected. And I worry about the safety of politicians who are at the receiving end of hatred.

I worry because sometimes you can get individuals who — I don’t want to use the word “radicalized” in a way that’s loose-lipped — can think that it’s permissible to behave in a certain way. It begins with online stuff. It can go to name-calling when you’re face-to-face. It can lead to violence. We’ve seen across the globe, whether it’s the former prime minister of Japan, the mayor of Gdansk, in this country politicians from Stephen Timms and David Amess to a dear friend of mine, Jo Cox — at the receiving end of violence. President Trump himself was thankfully spared the ultimate sacrifice, but he himself was a victim of violence.

And so it is important for Zohran to look after himself and his family. I think he’s done the smart thing, moving into Gracie Mansion, if it keeps him and his wife safe.

I’ve got to have police protection as a consequence of the threats on me — objectively risk-assessed by somebody else, not by me. It’s not nice.

I was going to say you would have that protection anyway — but do you think it’s different as a result of Donald Trump?

I’m the first mayor to have police protection. And there’s been objective analysis done about the increase in online hatred during President Trump’s first term and now his second term.

I want to ask about the war in the Middle East. It’s difficult for every politician navigating a careful line on the war in Israel and Gaza. How has it been for you as a Muslim man doing that when it invokes such profound, strong feelings among obviously not just the Muslim community, but the Jewish community and many other people. Has it been an uncomfortable experience?

I was a minister for faith in the Labour government between 2008 and 2009. It was the first time I realized that when there’s tension in the Middle East, it leads to antisemitism in this country. I’ve always made sure that’s at the fore of my mind when it comes to tension in the Middle East.

So I knew, as night follows day, that when Hamas attacked Israel and killed those innocent people on Oct. 7, 2023, you would see an increase in antisemitism here, which has happened.

I’ve got to have police protection as a consequence of the threats on me — objectively risk-assessed by somebody else, not by me. It’s not nice.

I was going to say you would have that protection anyway — but do you think it’s different as a result of Donald Trump?

I’m the first mayor to have police protection. And there’s been objective analysis done about the increase in online hatred during President Trump’s first term and now his second term.

I want to ask about the war in the Middle East. It’s difficult for every politician navigating a careful line on the war in Israel and Gaza. How has it been for you as a Muslim man doing that when it invokes such profound, strong feelings among obviously not just the Muslim community, but the Jewish community and many other people. Has it been an uncomfortable experience?

I was a minister for faith in the Labour government between 2008 and 2009. It was the first time I realized that when there’s tension in the Middle East, it leads to antisemitism in this country. I’ve always made sure that’s at the fore of my mind when it comes to tension in the Middle East.

So I knew, as night follows day, that when Hamas attacked Israel and killed those innocent people on Oct. 7, 2023, you would see an increase in antisemitism here, which has happened.

What I didn’t foresee was the response from Netanyahu in terms of what he did in Gaza and the West Bank, and it has been difficult. It’s been difficult for Jewish Londoners. It’s difficult for Muslim Londoners. It was difficult for any Londoner who cares about the Middle East.

But it is important to be able to do two things at the same time, to unequivocally condemn the actions of Hamas and what happened on Oct. 7, but also to say what Netanyahu is doing in response is also unacceptable, and you can condemn that.

And I think it is important for me to, back in October 2023, have called for a ceasefire. It was important for me some time ago to call for the recognition of Palestine, and I believe, from the stuff I’ve read, from the experts I’ve listened to and read, that there’s a genocide taking place in Gaza.

You have come to these positions earlier than the Labour government. Why is that? Is it the voter base, is it something else?

I’m not sure about voter base. We’ve got a thriving Jewish community in London — a thriving Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jewish community.

I’m somebody who has always relied on two things when it comes to forming a view. One, as a former lawyer, the evidence, and secondly, my values. And it’s values plus evidence that leads to good policy, in my view.

Look, foreign policy is not my domain. I’m the mayor of London, but I’ve got a bully pulpit. And I’ve got a situation where Londoners are concerned about these issues.

Mamdani in New York has obviously had a lot of coverage for some of the things he’s said on this same issue. He, for example, refused to condemn the phrase “globalize the intifada” in the summer and supported the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions movement. Do you think he’s taken the right approach? Is he playing into the hands of those on the right who want to paint Muslim politicians as being on one side of the issue?

I’m not going to comment on the views that he’s taken. What I will say is this is a good example of where you can have two politicians who, sure, may both be progressive, sure, may both belong to the same religion, but disagree. And this is a good example of where he and I disagree.

On policy, you’ve talked a lot about how it’s a victory for hope. What else is it a victory for? Because you agree with Mamdani on some things — rent controls and that kind of thing. But he would go a lot further than either you or the Labour Party. He’s talking about free bus travel for all, almost double the minimum wage, not just a raise. Is there actually more for, say, the Green Party and the left to learn here than there was for the Labour Party?

My view is, I think people are taking the wrong lessons from his victory. Yeah, of course. He’s young, he’s charismatic, he’s good looking — the reasons why I hate him. Throw into the mix that he supports Arsenal. I mean, it’s just a horrible mix.

But actually, it wasn’t just about vibe. He won this election because he was addressing the issues that New Yorkers care about, as well as seeking to fulfill their hopes and aspirations.

And we’ve sought to do the same in London in terms of the cost-of-living crisis. I’m the first mayor to provide free school meals to every state primary school kid. We’ve frozen bus fares six of the last nine years, tube fares five of the last nine years, a record number of council homes building. I’m a supporter of rent control if I had the powers to do so. The London living wage is now £14.80. It was £9 when I first became mayor. I could go on.

And what Zohran’s promised to do is, using different means, come to the same ends

I will have to wait and see what Zohran does, but I think he’s spot on to have these issues as the centerpiece of his campaign.

The things that you listed there show a parallel between the two of you, which is that you’re both running to the left of where the national bit of your party is.

To be fair to Keir Starmer and the Labour Party, I’m quite happy to lead, and they follow.

And an example is, I’m really pleased and proud that this government has passed a piece of legislation that will give private renters rights they never had before, in terms of no fault evictions, issues around damp and mold and so forth.

I’m somebody who defied the Labour whip and voted in 2016 against the Conservative government’s plans to bring in a cap [on benefits] for those families with more than two children. I’m really pleased that this government has done away with that.

So there are examples where the government’s doing some really good stuff on this particular issue, addressing the cost-of-living crisis, and I’m sure there’s more stuff they’ll do over the next three and a half years.”

Does the government in the U.K. need to lead more and follow less?

I think the government is trying to address the issues that people across the country have. That’s one of the reasons why, I suspect, Keir Starmer spent a lot of time trying to get trade agreements with the U.S., with the EU and India, because he understands in the global economy, you need to be doing that. And he’s talked about, and I welcome this as well, close alignment with the EU.

I think it’s important to this conversation, the fact that he’s the guy who brought together the Germans, French and President Zelenskyy to make sure that we resist Putin as a united Europe.”

A lot of people, though, say that the lesson from Mamdani is to be very charismatic — young and attractive, as you say — and stand on an unapologetically left-wing ticket. Do you think Keir Starmer or the Labour Party have either of those things?

Well, I’m not sure if President Trump or Prime Minister Meloni would agree with the thesis of how you win an election based on what you’ve said. But listen, Keir Starmer is the guy who changed and transformed the Labour Party. We went from the worst results in a general election since the 1930s to a landslide victory in July 2024.

So people who want to write off Keir Starmer do so at their peril. What I would say, though, is it’s not been a perfect first year and a half. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Even the most loyal Labour supporter has to accept we’ve not got everything right. But I’m pleased that there’s a recognition of that, and it seems to me that the government is now addressing that.

Going back to New York and Mamdani, there’s a split here. London’s outlook is completely different from the post-industrial towns in the north of England, while New York is a sort of socialist city-state in a country where some parts are extremely right-wing. Is this a problem in Western politics, where it’s polarized beyond reprieve?

No. I think there’s a common denominator between New York, London and national politics. The common denominator is actually, serve the people. The first rule in politics is to understand the rules of the game and then to understand what people want.

I’ll give you an example. Look at Zohran’s campaign and what he’s done during the transition period, talking about those who work in small businesses. Those are issues that are relevant across the entire U.S., across the entire U.K. as well. How do you adapt your society in terms of the rise of AI, the rise of automation, being outside the European Union, realizing we can’t compete when it comes to price with the Far East?

Answer: higher-skilled, well-paid jobs, the sort of jobs that [U.K. Energy Secretary] Ed Miliband has been talking about.

At its core, whether you live in Durham or Darlington or Tooting, there is a cost-of-living crisis. The same applies to Harlem, Astoria or Brooklyn. And I would hope that the citizens of New York, London, Durham want politicians who understand that.

Put aside the vibe. Put aside the charisma, the youth and the good looks, which upset me no end — actually, it’s about delivering the things that people need and want.

He’s young and on his way up. I know you don’t want to give him advice, but here’s one: Should he stick at being mayor for the long haul or use this as a springboard to bigger political jobs?

I think Zohran will realize very soon what I did, which is being the mayor of the city you love is the best job in the world.

And he will realize he has got the best job in the world. And I predict he will try and do it as long as he legally can, and as long as he has the trust of New Yorkers. It is a privilege to be the mayor of your city, and he will love it and, I think, be a great mayor.

He reminds me of Jurgen Klopp — I’m speaking as Liverpool [Football Club] fan — which is when you watch him, irrespective whether your team has won, lost or drawn, you end the interview with a smile on your face.

And at a time when there’s so much doom and gloom and despair, that makes me happy. As somebody who believes in the force of democracy and the power of voting, I think it’s great for all of us to see somebody enjoying a campaign, winning with poetry, and working really hard on the transition team. Whether he governs in prose or poetry, I think all of us will watch with great interest.